Bram Kranichfeld October 23, 2011

Interview with Bram Kranichfeld

The following is a faithfully transcribed conversation between me and Democratic mayoral candidate Bram Kranichfeld recorded at The Bagel Cafe and Deli in the Ethan Allen Shopping Center on North Avenue on October 23, 2011 between 2 and 3pm. Kranichfeld is currently city councilor from Ward 2 and is running for the Democratic mayoral nomination for mayor of Burlington.

HB: So this is your first term? or... uh... you were re-elected?

BK: I was re-elected. Technically I'm in my second term, although I'm not yet through my second year because I initially ran in a special election to fill in the vacancy that Emma Mulvaney-Stanak left. And so that was only a year left on that term. That ended in this March in 2011 and I had to run again this March and I ran unopposed in March.

HB: And you won a squeaker in the special election, right?

BK: That's right. The special election was a hard race. We worked very hard at it. It was a door to door campaign. Retail politics. I talked to everybody in the ward about my ideas about how we were going to resolve Burlington Telecom, about the frustration I have with Burlington Telecom, about all the quality of life issues that are so important to people in Ward Two.

HB: So what are your ideas for Burlington Telecom?

BK: Going forward or...?

HB: Yeah.

BK: The bottom line with Burlington Telecom has got to be to put the city in as strong a financial position as we possibly can be in, and ultimately to get our triple-A credit rating back. I don't think people understand... and I certainly don't include you in this... but the credit rating problem is a really big problem. It's preventing us from getting financing right now. It's causing the financing that we are getting to be more expensive. And so it really prevents many opportunities that we could have as a city when we have this downgraded credit, and I think that's got to be the absolute priority.

HB: And how do we get it back? By paying Citi Financial back?

BK: Well, not necessarily. We get it back by setting up our debt service in a way... basically we get it back by paying our obligations and by managing our financial liabilities in a responsible way... and by setting up a plan so we can do that going forward. Now as far as Burlington Telecom is involved, it really depends on what concrete proposals we actually get in front of us for a partner or investor in the company. Now I'd love to see the city hold on to a controlling interest in Burlington Telecom, but if the choice is between having a controlling interest in it and having a partner take on the liability and help us manage our credit rating better, I'm willing to let go of the controlling interest.

HB: In your opinion does that liability include the thirty-three million dollars that we borrowed from Citi Financial?

BK: Until that lawsuit is resolved, we are not going to know the answer to that. I've heard credible arguments that their lawsuit is far from a slam dunk lawsuit. It's in litigation. Like any other litigation, like any other lawsuit...

HB: What about morally?

BK: Even morally, because it's not the same thing as a... it's not as simple as just- we borrowed the money and agreed to pay them back them money. If you actually read the...I'm sure you've read the lease...

HB: Yes.

BK: And so, the terms of the lease basically say in the event of a default, then there's no question they get the equipment, ok, or the equivalent of the equipment...

HB: Does it make an exception for that? I mean does it say 'the equipment,' or the 'equivalent of the equipment?' It says 'the equipment' right?

BK: It says the equipment. It says the equipment. I can see why... I don't see a judge forcing us to actually dig the fiber out of the ground and give it to them, and frankly...

HB: Would that be a tragedy?

BK: It would be a tragedy. It think it's kind of an unrealistic expectation. I can't even imagine that Citi Capital would want us to do that. I think they'd rather have new fiber than for us to dig the stuff out of the ground and give it to them. So I don't think that's really...

HB: Unless their aim was to punish us and set an example for all their other customers.

BK: Well I think that that's why they filed the lawsuit in the first place. I don't think they have to go as far as actually forcing us to dig the fiber out of the ground. In fact I agree with you. I think that's why they're in the position they are- because they have a number of municipal debtors and they want to set an example to their municipal debtors.

HB: And they're claiming in the lawsuit also that we owe them money on top of what we borrowed because we're continuing to make money with the equipment that is theirs.

BK: Right. That's part of their argument. That's part of their argument. But...again, it's litigation. Anyone in litigation is going to make as broad an argument as they possibly can and try to hit as many points as they can because you... always end up somewhere in between. And I think that's what we've got to keep in mind with that lawsuit. I mean look Haik- I mean the lawsuit is a problem for us- there is no doubt.

HB: Yeah. It's a huge problem.

BK: It is...and I don't want to sound like I'm trying to defend the actions that got us into this mess, because it's a debacle that we're in. And it's based on, you know, bad judgment calls, and then a lack of transparency over the course of years. If the judgment calls hadn't been made, or if we had known about what was going on with Burlington Telecom, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in right now.

HB: To wit- On April 18^th of this year, Jonathan Leopold went on public access television and he said that the Board of Finance knew in May of 08 that BT was having trouble finding financing, that he told the board of finance in November of 08 the we owed pooled cash. At that time Kurt Wright and Tim Ashe were on the board of finance. Is Jonathan Leopold not telling the truth? Or do you think that Ashe and Wright learned that and ignored it? Or did they learn it and not understand?

BK: Look...I wasn't on the board of finance or on the council when those communications were made. And unfortunately I'm in the same position as you are. We basically have to take one person's word against the other, or look at the minutes...

HB: I did look at the minutes. I put them on my blog.

BK: For that meeting?

HB: Yeah.

BK: That wasn't in executive session?

HB: It was in executive session.

BK: Right...so I mean if it's in executive session we're basically stuck relying on one person's word over the other. I will say this- If that was made clear to the board of finance then it's totally unclear to me how the board of finance could have gone forward on what it ended up going forward on with Burlington Telecom. It seems to me a complete abdication of the responsibility of the board of finance whose function it is to be a check on the administration and on the city to protect taxpayers and protect the city financially... And if that information was made clear to the board of finance, I don't know how we ended up in the situation we're in now, or how it got worse from 2008.

HB: Interesting...but Leopold did say that.

BK: He claims he said that during that meeting?

HB: That's what he said. He said he told the board of finance these two months, these two things... Let's see...let's jump around a little bit. With regard to the council acting as a check on the mayor, the Democrats in particular hired a budget analyst- George Cross- to do exactly that. To provide another set of eyes on the budget- kind of help you guys understand it so that these kinds of things don't happen.

BK: Right.

HB: And what he ended up coming up with in his report are three recommendations having to do mainly with the school department. He wants the school department to pick up the retirement costs- specifically the Burlington employees retirement system and the FICA tax for non-teacher employees of the school department. Do you support doing that?

BK: You know... Let me just clarify the issue. He wanted to shift the payment of the FICA tax to the school board and away from the city. Is that what you're saying?

HB: Right.

BK: Because I remember his recommendation being...

HB: [Takes out copy of Cross report.]

BK: ...and if you have it that's great. But I remember one of his recommendation was that the scope of the audit ought to be extended to any city agency that interfaces with the school board.

HB: Uh....maybe... but so specifically what his says is FICA for school employees gets paid by the school department...

BK: Right.

HB: ...The retirement fund contributions get funded by the school employees, or through the school department. And then crossing guards are a separate thing. But about 1.3 million of that per annum would be basically a shift of cost from the city to the school department...

BK: Right, I mean...

HB: ... And there's a dedicated tax rate that the the city council passes to fund the retirement cost that doesn't take voter approval, but if the school board were to do it we would need voter approval to increase our budget...

BK: Right, right right...

HB: ...and if we didn't get it, then we'd have to eat into the education budget and that would harm children.

BK: That's a very good point. Look, the bottom line for me on this- as I've stated repeatedly- I think that the city has got to take more of a leadership role in supporting the school system and there has to be a stronger partnership between the city and the school system to promote our schools. Because I really do believe that- just in terms of growing the city in a positive way- in terms quality of life- there is no more important pillar of that than the public school system. It's the main reason why people come to the city. It's the main reason why people stay in the city. Now on the FICA tax issue... shifting the taxes... it's sort of a wash for the taxpayers. Whether it's in the...

HB: Well the claim is it would actually benefit our taxpayers because they would get the income-sensitivity of the school tax.

BK: So they would actually pay less? Is that what the argument was?

HB: Yeah and it would have statewide ramifications as well.

BK: Well it would affect the school budget, like you just said, and it would cause there to have to be a- not only a vote on it, but it would change the budgeting for the school system. So I don;t think that putting more pressure on the school system just because we want to clarify an issue in our accounting is a good idea.

HB: So you're not in agreement with the Cross report plan to do that?

BK: No, no no. I'm in agreement with most of the Cross report plan, but that particular issue... just based on my understanding of it right now, I don't support it. I have to...

HB: Well I mean it's a timing issue too in my opinion, because if everything was great and these were the best of times...

BK: I guess to answer your question- I just think we've got to be really careful about shifting costs onto the school system that don't need to be shifted onto the school system, and we've got to be very mindful about putting obstacles up for the schools. Right now I think there's a real divide between the school system and the city in that the city really doesn't feel like it has any... I mean we don't have any direct role in the funding of the schools and that's true. But that's no reason for the city to abdicate such a leadership position it could take- and especially the mayor! I mean the mayor's got the bully pulpit. The mayor can be right out there on the front lines being an advocate for and supporting the school system. And unless there's a very clear need to be, you know, shifting the burden onto the school system, I really don't think it's a good idea,

HB: Well the mayor seems really into the idea and the president [of the city council] Bill Keogh- he's all for it as far as I can tell.

BK: Well I've disagreed with both of them on other issues, so...

HB: Ok....So speaking of the retirement plan- that's one piece of the puzzle when it comes to the retirement plan- or one part of the overall picture...

BK: Right...

HB: So- a task force report which Kurt Wright and Karen Paul, who are both potential rivals in the March election, were on reported in 2007 that in 2006 the pension was underfunded by 32 million dollars. It was only 77% funded. That was before 2008 when the market crashed. Do you know roughly what the unfunded liability is now/

BK: I think it's about the same actually. I think it went back up to around the same number. I'd have to look into that for you. But I think we went significantly lower.... in 2008 the market crashed and went significantly lower, and that's when everybody really started panicking about it. And since then- my understanding- it's back up to... I want to say 70%- I'll have to look that up for you...To get you the exact number I'd have to look into it for you.

HB: When Andy Montroll ran for mayor in the last cycle he was pretty clear that he prefers to go to a defined contribution versus defined benefit...

BK: Absolutely.

HB: Absolutely?

BK: Well no, no...absolutely I agree that he said that.

HB: Oh I see [chuckles].

BK: I think it's a good idea. The defined contribution is something we ought to be moving towards going forward as a city. In the meantime though, first of all we've got to respect our current agreements. And we also have to respect the collective bargaining process as we go forward. I mean there's no...with all of the union pensions... we have a system in place and these are bargained for benefits that have to be negotiated at the table.

HB: Would you support bargaining in favor of defined contribution for new employees?

BK: I would. I think going forward... I mean it depends on exactly what department we're talking about...

HB: Or a reduction of the defined benefit? It seems like it's got to be some combination of those two, or else...

BK: I think going forward with new employees we've got to shift the direction the city's in, and that means as we make new hires we have to change the benefits that we're giving out. I mean that's just the reality of the situation. Coming into this next term the mayor is going to have to make some incredibly hard decisions... how to manage the finances of the city and how to mitigate the damage on some of the decisions that have been made in the past that we're inheriting now. The pensions is one of them. Burlington Telecom is one of them and going forward we've got to go in a different direction. But again, it's got to be at the negotiating table. It's got to be done within the process that we have right now.

HB: Did you support IRV [Instant Run-off Voting]?

BK: I did support IRV, but frankly my take on IRV is that I really didn't think that is was truly a run-off system, so I didn't like the way that that was being sold...

HB: Right.

BK: ...or advertised, but I didn't think that it was a necessarily flawed system.

HB: So could you rank the other three people vying for the Democratic nomination right now?

BK: [Laughs.] The way I'd rank the four candidates right now is me number one, and then everybody else after that.

HB: I've asked Tim Ashe twice- If you're not the Democratic nominee and the Progressives re-nominate Kiss who would you vote for? The Democratic nominee or Bob Kiss? He hasn't answered me.

BK: Well he was asked...

HB: Should he answer? Oh, was he asked?

BK: He was asked that at the debate we had last Wednesday, and his answer was essentially- and I don't want to speak for him, so you can actually go look at the footage for that- but my recollection of his answer was that was essentially- 'I can't commit to doing that now and if somebody runs a mean campaign against me, or if somebody runs an underhanded campaign against me and gets the nomination then I wouldn’t do it.'

HB: Really? Do you think he should show more party loyalty if he wants to be the Democrat?

BK: Yeah I do. I'll tell you something. Whoever gets nominated by the Democrats, I will support if I don't get the nomination.

HB: If you do get the nomination would you also accept the Progressive nomination? Tim said he would.

BK: I'd have to think about that. I don't know. I mean, Haik, I've always been a Democrat. When I came to Burlington I was a Democrat. I ran as a Democrat as a city councilor. I'm running as a Democrat now. I think I've demonstrated that I have cross-party appeal and I've certainly always reached out to all the other parties, not only in my campaigns but in my time on the council. And again as you mentioned before, I'm the first Democrat elected to my seat in Ward Two in over 20 years and nobody ran against me in...

HB: Your website mentioned that. I don't think I mentioned it.

BK: Oh. Right...but our website mentions it. And you know- I didn't gave an opponent this last March so I think I'm doing something right by my constituents. And my ward is a traditionally Progressive ward- and on the council I have tried my best to ignore partisanship. You know, if the Progressives have a good idea, I will support it. If the Democrats have a good idea, I'll support it. If the Republicans have a good idea, I'll support that.

HB: Dave Hartnett came up with an idea recently to get rid of party labels for the mayoral race.

BK: Sure. Didn't support that.

HB: Didn't support that?

BK: Didn't support that. I didn't like that idea. I'll tell you why. Here's why I don't like that idea. First of all- just because you're in a political party, doesn't mean you have to be partisan.

HB: Well...doesn't it?

BK: No. It doesn't.

HB: Isn't that the definition of it?

BK: A party describes a broad set of values you subscribe to, but it doesn't mean you have to check you're brain at the door every time an issue comes in front of you, and just tow the party line... And I also think that that proposal to take party designations off the ballot- all it does is hide your party designation from the voters. In my opinion, if you've taken a step to join a political party- to get endorsed by a political party- and then to run with their endorsement- Isn't that something that the voters ought to know?

HB: Presumably the endorsement part of it would go away...

BK: Not necessarily. All that resolution was there to do was to take the designation off the ballot.

HB: What do you think he was doing that for?

BK: [Laughs.] I'm not going to speak for Kurt...

HB: No not Kurt. Dave...

BK: Oh, Dave Hartnett? Well Kurt sponsored it too... I mean I'm not going to speak for them, but I think in general if you have a problem owning up to what party you're a member of then that would be a great thing to do... take your designation off the ballot

HB: So Kurt came up with an idea of selling Burlington Electric Department to raise money to pay off- I guess our Burlington Telecom debt- I guess he thinks we owe Citi the money, maybe. I don't know. I'll have to ask him but the Democrats all panned that as a bad idea. I guess you think it's a bad idea?

BK: Terrible idea.

HB: Why?

BK: For many reasons...I used to be the chairman of the electric commission...

HB: Right. So did Joe McNeil's father.

BK: Really?

HB: Yeah. You know that Joe McNeil plant? That's named after him because he was chair of the, uh... yeah...

BK: That's awesome. First of all the Burlington electric department is the best department we have. I think it's a model for...

HB: Doesn't that hurt Public Works' feelings and Parks' feelings to say that?

BK: It may, but I think the Burlington electric department is a model for how a municipally owned department ought to run. The policy is driven by the commission and the voters and the citizens of Burlington so their energy policy is mindful of all of the environmental values and community values that we have here in Burlington... Their policy is to pursue a 100% renewable energy portfolio and they're over 80% I think at this point, which is amazing.

HB: Does that include nuclear?

BK: No. It does not include nuclear. It includes hydro-power, it includes biomass like the McNeil generating plant which is wood chips. That's all infinitely preferable to oil and gas and coal in my opinion. And they've been doing it successfully. And- they've been doing it while keeping our electric rates low. I mean we haven't had a significant increase in the rates since the 80s if you count inflation. They are an amazing success story. They have pursued our values as a community in a way that makes sense economically.

HB: So if I'm understanding Kurt correctly he says if he becomes mayor he could potentially put that on the ballot for next November. He's on the city council now. Is there any reason he couldn't propose that now to put it on the ballot in March?

BK: Not that I know of.

HB: Why do you think he's waiting?

BK: I don't know.

HB: Purely a political stunt you think?

BK: I think if nothing else it's a way to get headlines. I think it's a terrible idea. And it's not just that. It's not just that. It's not just the asset that Burlington electric department is for us, because it's a tremendous asset for the city... It's that if you privatize Burlington Electric you're creating a substantial risk that everyone's electric rates are going to go up. And so if the ultimate goal is to protect taxpayers by managing your finances responsibly, why would you propose a solution that will instantly cause their electric rates to go up? Electricity is something like water. Everybody uses it. It's not really a luxury item. I mean everybody uses electricity in this city. And so to propose a solution to protect taxpayers by jacking up their electric rates seems kind of like you're missing the point to me. And the other problem with it is that it's unclear it would really solve the financial liabilities we have... Selling Burlington electric would give you a one-time cash infusion which changes whether you're talking to Kurt Wright or whether you're talking to Barbara Grimes as to how much it's actually worth. You know the financial liabilities we're facing- many of them are very long-term liabilities. I mean the pensions are a 30 year liability or more. The 17 million dollars that we're owed by Burlington Telecom is essentially an internal loss at this point, or at least an internal liability. I mean it's not like we owe it to an outside creditor. It's money that the city of Burlington flushed down the toilet under...

HB: Do you think it was flushed down the toilet or do you think it went to...

BK: It went to Burlington Telecom!

HB: ...to build the network?

BK: Yeah. It went to Burlington Telecom...

HB: It that the same as flushing it down the toilet?

BK: Well...when you're not telling the taxpayers what the status of your business is and you're not being open and transparent about what the finances of Burlington Telecom are until the money's already gone....

HB: Right. But do you consider the network that they laid an asset?

BK: I absolutely think it's an asset! Look, the fiber in the ground is an asset. The company is an asset. I think Burlington Telecom is a valuable asset to us, but the reality of the situation is that we have got to deal with the financial mess we're in....And again, for me the priority is finding a partner that will get us...

HB: Do you think it could ever succeed without a partner? The way it was originally proposed?

BK: Maybe in the very, very long run...

HB: Why has it failed to do that? Why has it missed all the projections that were laid out? That it would be cash-flow positive and have 'x' number of customers ?

BK: I wasn't on the council when all this was going on, so I know about as much as the public does in terms of what the decision making was- but my opinion- based on what I understand- ...the company was hamstrung by the fact that it had to do 100% build out in Burlington before it could go into cheaper markets like Williston and South Burlington, and it didn't focus enough of its money on marketing so it wasn't drawing the customer list as much as it should have been. And so as it was spending all of this money on the build-out and on the fiber in the ground, it wasn't bringing in enough new customers and enough new revenue to cover those costs on a long-run basis.

HB: Should it have been, or should it be run by a commission, and not by a consultant?

BK: I'd love to see it run... Look, again- I think that the Burlington electric department is a great mode but we can't... I mean Haik- these are questions that- If we could go back in a time machine and do Burlington Telecom over again, then yes- I think we should have done a lot of things differently right at the beginning...

HB: Including run it by a commission?

BK: [Pause.] I'm not sure whether...

HB: You know what I mean? Make it a full department. It's always been this sort of quasi-department- not quite a full fledged...

BK: Exactly. I mean the way it was functioning was an entirely city-owned, city-run “department” in quotations but it really didn't exist on its own. It was being run essentially by the clerk-treasurer's office. So I do think that...if we had formed a commission like the electric commission that actually had oversight responsibilities and oversight authority over the department we might be in a different situation than we are right now. In fact, that would have been a great idea because maybe some of the information around the finances would have become public a lot sooner.

HB: Is it too late to do it that way?

BK: I think the reality is we're dealing with the 17 million dollar hole in our assets and we're dealing with these outstanding lawsuits and... it's never too late to do anything Haik, but think that the immediate issue it to deal with the financial situation and we have got to find a partner. I mean that's what the solution is, we've got to find a partner to come in and...

HB: Why? What could a partner do that we couldn't do ourselves?

BK: A partner could pay for all these liabilities that are...

HB: Why would they want to do that?

BK: Well there is value in the company. There's value in the company. As an ongoing company there is value and a partner could come in... look as I said before, it is an asset...

HB: Right, right, so.... This is one of the things I was wondering- Kurt proposes doing some kind of public-private partnership... but if the partner stands to gain, then why wouldn't we have stood to gain what the partner was going to gain? Why don't we want it all for ourselves?

BK: That's exactly right, but that's a decision that should have been made six years ago. At this point the reality is we're facing liabilities that we can't pay as a city.

HB: The most comprehensive audit so far of Burlington Telecom came from the Larkin report which came out in January. Remember that?

BK: Yeah.

HB: And they said that essentially Burlington Telecom was being funded by the cash pool from the very beginning... Um...[Laughs.] ...any thoughts on that?

BK: One of the reasons I ran for city council in the first place was because I was so aggravated by the mismanagement of Burlington Telecom. If we had known, as the public, what was going on with Burlington Telecom at the beginning we would not be in the situation we are right now. It would have been nipped in the bud at the very beginning. Either we would have tweaked the project or we would have scuttled it. And we may have taken a hit as a city in the tune of, you know, five million dollars but we certainly wouldn't be taking a hit...

HB: So maybe we would have bailed out sooner...

BK: My philosophy is there is nothing wrong with trying out a new project or a new program as long as you have the wherewithal and the honesty to admit when it's not working, ok, and to let everybody know when it's not working. Because what that does- it allows the option of either tweaking it, to make it work, or to scuttle it and cut your losses... what compounded the problem is that we didn't find out about any of the mismanagement until it was too late to change the decisions... My entire time on the council has been about increasing the oversight, about hiring people like the budget consultant, about putting the budget task force together, about putting the blue-ribbon committee together- It's all about either increasing the oversight to prevent this from happening again, or mitigating the damage that has been done already.

HB: So, you're 31?

BK: I'm 31. Yup.

HB: You have less than two years on the council. What do you say to people that say you just don't have enough experience to be the mayor?

BK: Sure...

HB: Why after less than one equivalent full term would you wan to be the mayor...or think you have the experience and the skills to do that?

BK: Well I have the breath of experience that is necessary to be mayor. First of all anyone who wants to be mayor is going to immediately have to deal with all the financial issue's we're talking about. I've got a background in finance. I used to be a business lawyer in New York before I moved here and most of what we worked on was finance. We worked for big companies and we raised money for them through securities. We worked with banks. We worked with brokerages. I did public offerings on the stock exchange. I did private placements of securities. I drafted contracts. I negotiated contracts....

HB: What do you think of the occupy Wall Street movement from that perspective?

BK: I absolutely support occupy Wall Street! I think that they are right-on in terms of the general principles that they've been able to articulate at this point. And I'll tell you why. I mean look....occupy Wall Street is sort of a different question the um...

HB: I know but you're coming at it from perspective of a corporate lawyer from New York, you know...

BK: I used to work on Wall Street.

HB: Right. Exactly. So aren't they protesting you?

BK. Yeah... and I think having that first hand experience as a corporate attorney- I have a first hand view of how exactly finance works in this country, and part of the reason I left New York was because I was so disillusioned with the way that finance works in this country. And frankly, you know... Let me put it this way. I took a step back one day- I was working as a business lawyer. I thought it was very intellectually challenging. I have no regrets about what I learned because I learned a lot about finance. I learned a lot about the business world. But I took a step back one day and said “what am I doing with my life? What am I doing working 80 hours a week at this job?” And the answer was “I make rich people richer.” And at that point I knew I couldn't continue to do that... It was just so meaningless to me that I left my job. I decided to move up to Vermont because I did have a connection in Vermont. My parents were living in Dummerston when I was born.

HB: So you were born in Vermont?

BK: Well the nearest hospital was in Greenfield Mass...but a day later I came back to Vermont. I spent the first five years of my life in Vermont. I have family in Rutland, and I'd heard a lot of good things about Burlington. I had friends from high school who had lived up in Burlington. And I'd visited Burlington. I thought it was a beautiful town.

HB: When did you move here?

BK: I moved here in two thousand and...jeez....six years ago I guess. It was about six years ago. Yeah and when I moved here I was immediately struck by, first of all how beautiful this city is, and by how... just how perfect the location and the setting is for this city...

HB: It is pretty perfect.

BK: ...and the size of it. It's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful city. But I was also struck by the values of the community. You know you're immediately struck in Burlington by how engaged everybody is. I mean people really care about each other in Burlington. They really care about where the city's headed and where the community's headed and I decided within two weeks of coming here that I was never going to leave.

HB: How did you decide to become a prosecutor?

BK: I'd actually always wanted to work in criminal law and I applied to the state's attorney's office here in Chittenden County within a year of moving here and I got a job and the rest is history. I've been deputy state's attorney there since then.

HB: [Pause.] Why do you think TJ [Donovan] didn't want to run?

BK: [Laughs.] I can't speak for TJ. I really...I have no idea.

HB: Did you talk about it with him? Did you tell him you had decided to run before he decided not to?

BK: No. We had no conversations about it. I mean I'd been interested in doing it...

HB: He would have been a shoe-in though, right?

BK: TJ? Yeah- I don't know if he would have been a shoe-in, but I think he's a well known, well respected person in this community.

HB: Oh yeah. He is. Totally. He's a fellow BHS [Burlington High School] alum.

BK: Oh that's right... you guys went to...I knew that. I knew that. That's great.

HB: What is your position, or plan for the Moran plant?

BK: The Moran plant is a... I support the spirit of the Moran plant. I support the idea of the Moran plant.

HB: Which is what?

BK: Which is to develop that part of the waterfront in a way that makes it useful to the community and not just what it is now... especially Moran- it looks like an industrial wasteland. I'm not ready to approve the Moran project for two reasons. One- I don't think we have enough of an assurance that it's a risk free move for us. We haven't gotten the kinds of financial assurances I'd like to see.

HB: Did you support selling it to the YMCA for a dollar? Or leasing it to them for a dollar?

BK: I liked the idea of the YMCA there. I think the YMCA would have been a good tenant. I'm worried about somebody like Ice Factor because the entire project at this point is being designed around having a four-story ice climbing wall.

HB: That seems a little crazy right?

BK: It seems crazy in its...

HB: Who in Vermont wants to climb ice in the winter time?

BK: [Chuckles.] Well there are some questions about the business model...

HB: I mean who is that going to serve? I'm not going to do that.

BK: But another issue that it raises- if Ice Factor doesn't work out for one reason or another, then we're left with essentially a useless...

HB: Ice climbing wall?

BK: Space. Even if you don't build an ice climbing wall, what are you going to do with a four-story open space?

HB: Trees. Botanical garden. Botanical garden. I've been pushing that.

BK: [Laughing] Alright. Alright... well then...

HB: [Laughing.] We could have full size [palm] trees in there- a tropical environment. In the winter time, that would draw people.

BK: So I have concerns about the finances. I think the last thing we want to do right now as a city is take on any more financial risk that we don't need to. I want to see more of an assurance that we're not doing that before I can approve that project.

HB: Do you support completing the Champlain Parkway?

BK: I do but only if we can come up with a plan for what I think are two major issues. One is resulting cut-through traffic in the five sisters neighborhood... I'm worried that people are going to try to avoid traffic on Pine street by cutting though Locust Avenue and Howard Street which I think would be bad. So I think we've got to have a plan with department of public works to sort of protect the other residential neighborhoods that could be adversely affected.

HB: There is a plan now for its completion. It's supposed to be done within, what- the next two years.

BK: Well it's in the act 250 process and there's still some time. If you're talking about the plan for actually connecting the thing, you're right, but I think there's still additional work we could do as a city in other departments to sort of mitigate the cost of that project on the neighborhood. So there's the cut-though traffic I think is an issue. There's also the issue of pedestrian and bike traffic trying to cross Pine Street, which is already a problem right now, and I think it's going to be made worse by the Champlain Parkway. The mayor says there's going to be enough crosswalks and that kind of thing as part of the plan but I need more assurances that that's going to work the way it's supposed to. And then finally- The last time I checked the plan it was going to increase some of the traffic at the interception of Maple Street and Pine and at King Street and Pine and although there's a traffic light being installed there as part of the plan, I'm a little concerned about that. That's the other big cost, I think, of this project. On the other hand I think the benefits are huge. We get truck traffic away from residential neighborhoods. It does have as part of the plan a bike path and a sidewalk so is in some respects consistent with what I'd like to see as a greener transportation network in the city.

HB: Would you like to see a Target, or some kind of... a low-cost department store come back downtown? Not Filene's but something closer to Woolworth's- Oh I guess Woolworth's was gone before you got here...

BK: Yeah...

HB: There used to be a Woolworth's and that was like- You could buy cheap useful items like a dish drainer...sewing kit... you know there's nothing like that downtown now.

BK: Right.

HB: You know I think that the stores are more welcoming to people with [a lot of] money. They're sort of like- upscale boutiques. But then the people that are hanging out downtown... It's almost like- 'through the looking glass.' There's like- homeless people in front of high-end boutiques.

BK: Right.

HB: What would you do to invite the middle class back downtown?

BK: You're absolutely right. The market place is a public space and we need to protect it as a public space. It's like the town center. It's where the community can get to see each other. It's where the community can go hang out. I try to get down to the marketplace at least once a weekend and just hang out and see people I know and enjoy the center of downtown. I think the farmers market is a great opportunity to do that and a great example of that. So I've been very...what's the word I'm looking for... I've been very concerned about some of the proposals to sort of turn the marketplace into a glorified mall. I mean it functions as a mall, but I don't want to see us lose the public atmosphere of the marketplace. On the other hand we do have some real problems in the marketplace. No doubt. I mean there's some really bad behavior that goes on down there. I mean there's aggressive panhandling. There is disorderly conduct. There's fights that we're seeing. Drugs. Alcohol. These are issues we have got to deal with as a city....And I'm working right now on proposals- I'm the chair of the public safety committee and one of the things we were working on recently was an initiative to allow the city to trespass people from the marketplace if they broke the rules. If they committed a crime. If they were caught with drugs. If they were getting in a fight with somebody. It would give the city the ability to say “hey you know what? Don't come back for a week or a month.”

HB: Right and that would be the same as kicking them out of city hall or any other public space?

BK: Exactly. Exactly right. So I like solutions that focus on the actual problem. The problem down there is bad behavior and those are proposals that focus directly on...

HB: Yeah but is that the only problem? Or is it also the case that the retail effort down there doesn't attract middle class people?

BK: Well you know I mean look- I think we've got to focus more as a city...

HB: Like how are we going to fill up that space where Borders was?

BK: Well I think there's already someone coming in there. But I'm not sure who it is...

HB: [Laughing] Ice Factor?

BK: [Laughing] Yeah it's going to be their ice skating rink.

BH: I mean we can do much better as a city to attract and retain businesses to this city and to act as more of a traditional chamber of commerce. I think that CEDO [Community and Economic Development Office] has done a very good job managing grants and managing things like the Moran project, but what I'd like to see more of is much more of a push in just being a partner for business rather than an obstacle for business. Being about to share information about vacant space, about where labor is, where jobs are. How to negotiate the permitting process for businesses.

HB: Yeah. I was going to ask you about that because- the permitting process is hard- I wanted to put up a fence, and it's just- I mean you have to draw like- a map. I mean can't the city do that? Can't you map out every property in the city for us? So that it's easier to apply for whatever we want to apply for? Are there ways to modernize...

BK: Yes...

HB: ...that process- and make it easier for people?

BK: Yes. Definitely... I actually just supported a resolution to do an audit of the permitting process. I think the mayor sent that back to us unsigned, but we, as the council passed that recently. And it's a huge problem for not only businesses but for individuals like you just said. I mean I get so many complaints from my constituents about negotiating the permitting process no matter how simple a project it sounds like. Whether it's just expanding a deck by six inches or it's changing the slope of the roof by half a degree, it's so hard for everybody to negotiate our permitting process here. I think part of it is taking a really hard look at what the process actually is and then trying to streamline as much as possible- try to use technology as much as we possibly can to streamline it. You know that map example is a great example. Why can't you just look that up on the website? That's a good opportunity for using 21^st century technology to get us where we need to be with the process. And I think another part of it is taking a hard look at the actual regulations and a really good hard look at whet the rules we have are and try to make them as efficient as possible.

HB: It also seems like every department and every part of the city has its own website and its own web platform. I guess now you can pay your electric bill online, and you can pay Burlington Telecom online, but you have to do it separately...

BK: Right...

HB: Can we move toward getting that all into one place so that everything I owe the city, be it electric, water, telecom, tax or whatever- Can I pay it all in one place?

BK: That's a great idea. I mean there's no reason why the city can't have a place where you can pay all your bills online and have a unified website that has the same format for everything. I mean going back to the accounting- it's the same problem with the accounting system- the formats for every department are independent! There's no unified format for the accounting system which is a huge problem. The philosophy- the underlying goal has got to be to find these efficiencies and making them happen... Streamlining everything in the city, not only to save resources, but to make it easier for the taxpayers.

HB: Do you have anything else you want to talk about that we haven't touched on?

BK: In general, what I'd like to just say is that I think we have spent so much time and energy in the last few years talking about Burlington Telecom and the finances of the city- the councilors and the current administration have spent so much time and energy pointing fingers...Hey Look!

[Jason Lorber walks up to us]

BK: [To Lorber] What's going on?

JL: Not much, you?

HB: [To Lorber]: Good to see you.

JL: [To Haik] : Yeah it's good to see you.... Well I don't want to interrupt your talk, but we should catch up sometime.

HB: [To Lorber]: Yeah. We could do an interview too if you want....

BK: I'll just say this... I think that this election is our golden opportunity to come together as a community and leave behind all the partisan vitriol that has paralyzed the city for so long and move forward together as a community again. I want to get back to being focused on quality of life issues that make this city a beautiful, liveable place for everybody... For me that means public safety. It means attracting and retaining businesses and having a thriving local economy and it means a renewed focus on the school system and supporting that. I think all those three things go together. I think they're the pillars for improving everybody's quality of life and I want to see us get there. Now there is no doubt we have got to deal with the fiscal problems that we've inherited at this point and that's going to be the first step for any new mayor- is to get the fiscal house back in order and to clean it up- But we can't lose sight of the fact that once it is cleaned up and once we're back on track, that we've got to get focused again on quality of life issues. And so I think I've touched on all that at on point or another over the course of this conversation but I just wanted to make that clear.

HB: Bram Kranichfeld Democratic candidate for mayor. Thank you very much.

BK: Hey Haik, thanks so much. I really appreciate it.